Then God said to me, “Jon…”
10 Jan
Then God said to me, “Jon…”
I want to start by saying that these are just some quick thoughts on a subject that I would love to explore more at some point. I have a good friend who has studied and processed this subject quite a bit and I would love to have them post their thoughts on this subject some time soon.
A certain phrase has really been rubbing me the wrong way lately. Usually when telling part of a life story or at some point during a devotion or sermon, the phrase “Then God said to me…” is used and then is usually followed by the speaker relating some truth they realized at that point in their life. Quick example:
“… and I was so upset about this kid rejecting Christ, then God said to me, ‘Jon, I am the one who saves, it is not up to you.’ ”
Now let me be clear, I believe that Scripture affirms the truth that it is God alone who saves. The problem is rarely the phrase that follows “Then God said to me …”. The problem is the phrase “Then God said to me” itself. Here are at least two quick reasons why I have problems with that phrase:
1. If it is God speaking to you, why say it so flippantly? If you truly believe that the God of the Universe verbally spoke to you, why present it as a conversation you would have with a buddy of yours?
2. If it was not God audibly speaking to you, but just a reminder from the Holy Spirit of truths from Scripture (which Scripture affirms can and does happen) … then why say it was God speaking conversationally with you?
Can we be more careful about putting words into God’s mouth? Why can’t we just teach what God has revealed in Scripture instead of trying to gain more credibility and power by saying “God said to me…”
What are your thoughts on this language?
Wait, God doesn’t speak conversationally?
Joesph,
Sorry man, I can’t tell how you meant for that to come across… here are my thoughts on God speaking conversationally:
1. God, without a doubt, speaks conversationally. We see this in the Old and New Testaments.
2. When God speaks audibly in conversation with a human, it is not flippant and usually involves fear being instilled in the human. When I have a problem with the phrase, “God said to me …” it is when it is followed by a reenactment of the conversation that does not involve fear or respect for God.
Since I have been trying to talk to people about their use of that phrase, I have found that a vast majority (not an over-statement) of the time, the person did not experience the audible voice of God. They were either reminded of Scripture or the words of someone who spoke truths of Scripture to them, or they read Scripture themselves and discovered the truth. They might not mean “God said” in a verbal sense, I am arguing that we should be very careful about using the phrase “God said” to communicate anything other that words God actually says.
Love your comments Joseph, and I really appreciate you even though we haven’t met in person! (That needs to change…)
I would argue that God does not in fact speak conversationally. God does not speak at all. He has no mouth, no vocal cords, no lungs. He is Spirit, so whatever the Bible means when it says that He “speaks,” while it must be something like what it means when humans speak, it cannot mean the same thing.
The other way in which “conversationally” may be misleading is that in our day and age, one might be tempted to envision a conversation as an exchange between peers. (I think this is your main concern, Jon). In the Bible, exchanges between God and humans usually leave the humans completely devastated. E.g. God’s sarcastic “Where were you?” statements to Job, Isaiah being “undone,” even the most “intimate” interaction between God and man (Moses speaking to God “as a man speaks with his friend”) involved clouds of smoke, clefts of rock, and hoods to hide the supernatural after-effects of the interaction. Clearly the phrase “face to face” in Exodus 33 begs to be qualified in light of the warning only verses later, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
On the other hand, if we start with the fact that knowledge of God is impossible (finitude cannot grasp infinity) then the miracle of revelation, no matter how static or antiquated, is a boon. Far from “reducing the voice of God to paper,” or confining God to a book, (Words of William Paul Young in The Shack) the few words of God to humanity become “sweet to our taste, sweeter than honey to our mouths” (Psalm 119:103) –a phrase written by one who had only received the first 5 books of our modern Bible. How much more for those of use who have the other 61.
I think we need to be careful in making such general statements such as “God speaks this way” or “God doesn’t speak this way”. To say that God can only speak to me through Scripture and therefore cannot communicate to my spirit in any other way is limiting. He communicates Himself and truths of life through nature, music, art, Scripture, silence, dreams, encouragement of a friend, shut doors, rebuke, metaphors, earthly shadows of heavenly things — not just through the words on a page. If God is meant to be in relationship with us, who’s to limit how that relationship can look/sound? Why shouldn’t the God of the Universe who knit me in my mother’s womb speak to me in an intimate way as a lover, father, or friend?
Yes, semantically the phrase “and then God said to me” is very limiting and should be used cautiously to not sound as though we are devaluing the importance of Scripture – but I can tell you that the Lord has spoken to me in short words or phrases that are supported by Scripture but not necessarily quoted verses.
The problem arises quickly and most ostensibly when one begins to equate what they call “God said” with the same veneration which is afforded to the sacred scriptures. Even if what “God said” really is more a biblical truth which was brought to mind, what one is saying in affirming that “God said x” is really saying; this is the unqualified and absolutely correct interpretation of said scripture. The problem with the statement “God said” is that it means explicitly and unequivocally that this is true about situation “x.” Effectively, the statement “God said” makes the person saying it the most powerful person in the room without any recourse for correction or accountability.
I agree, Drew, accountability is key. I simply don’t trust myself to distinguish between God whispering to my heart and my heart (which is more deceitful than all else and desperately wicked) masquerading as the Holy Spirit relaying my own sinful desires. I also don’t trust you, Drew.
Tyson, I recently wrote a paper tracing one strand of the overly personalized “relationship” language associated with communion with the divine, and the associated pneumatology of 3 major movements (non-cenobitic monasticism, mediaeval and puritan mysticism, and german pietism) within church history which seem to contribute to it. I would love to hash it over with you.
Sorry mean to write “leading” language, not “relationship” although that is also an interesting topic to discuss.
Hey Guys –
Great comments, I love seeing this discussed and worked through. I’d love to have any more specific conversations outside of these comments, let me know and I’d love to talk!
Seriously, I’m out of town at a training and have pretty limited internet access and it’s great to see a flood of comments every time I get service.
Soli Deo Gloria, looking forward to the day where we will know fully, just as we are fully know.
Drew I’d love to read your paper. Sounds very interesting. Doubt I’d be much help in hashing. I haven’t hashed since high school. I will say I always attributed our individualistic “leading” language to Schliermacher and Wesleyan Perfectionism/Holiness Movement/Exchanged Life. I also think the landscape changes in confessional versus non-confessional contexts.
Jon: us not meeting in person is a wrong that needs to be righted and soon.
I do agree with you that God speaking is so flippant (shallow, lacking in seriousness). I immediately checked my conversations of past and sought out when I have used “God said to me…” which I don’t think ever. Has God pressed my heart? Sure. Has God quicken my heart? Of course. Did God bring something to remembrance? Certainly. Did God speak to me through His Word. To tears.
Is God personal and conversational? The most wonderful example of this has to be in Genesis 4.
Genesis 4:6-7 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
Sure we have people like Isaiah and Paul becoming completely undone at His voice. But what about Cain still gave into the depravity of his heart.